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December 3, 2011 – Day 2 of Morgan’s Investigation – Family and friends arriving

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The Jet trails arriving in Colorado

The Jet trails arriving in Colorado

I woke up and remember lying in bed, lying and praying. I could not convince myself to get out of bed, but I was giving it my best try.  Family and friends had arrived yesterday and more would surround us today.

It had snowed last night and it was completely quiet and white outside.  Steve had been given a task by detective Glassmire before he left yesterday, and he was already up and working at it.  I listened to him type and sob, and type and sob. Then I would sob, and tell him to stop it.  Then he would sob and apologize for it.  I wondered if this is what our life has become, either way I was having great problems accepting it.

Steve reminded me that Morgan’s Godfather was coming in this morning and we would be off to the airport soon to meet him.  He wanted to finish the request from detective Glassmire first.

Like many other seemingly simple questions at the beginning became.  This “simple request” would become greatly problematic.  The Deputy Coroner wanted from Steve an email as to any medical type things that Morgan had that they should “look for at autopsy”, it was “anything no matter how minor”.  He didn’t have to do it until Monday, but he wanted to just get it off as soon as he could.

In reality Morgan’s autopsy has already been completed and they are asking an artist for any medical opinions as to his daughters medical conditions which is, of course ridiculous, but it is what they do with the email.  Steve sends them what is the most unbelievable thing.  My advice to anyone in this situation, direct the Coroner to your doctor and stay away.  But not knowing any of this Steve types a short, one page email about things he worried about in Morgan’s life.  I was trusting Steve with this email, like I was trusting the doctor who had our daughters body in his care.

 

Colorado FlowersI was up and certain that if I pushed forward hard enough I would get through this.  I wandered out from the room and arrivals from last night had the house in complete control.  I had coffee and cried, because as bustling as the house was it was just a little too quiet.  Flowers and cards lined the bar top and for a moment I wanted to gather them all up and deposit them in the garage.  Instead I began to read them,  Even on the first day there were so many squarely behind Morgan and us, and they promised to be forever.

Steve came out and said he was done, leaving for the airport shortly and wanted me to go with him.  I was voted down and stayed home while Steve went with our older daughter.  It was a different world that day, hard to really explain to anyone just what it was like.  So many thoughts, questions, unknowns, it would be days before my compass got even close to the right direction for me.  Our sister-in-law and our oldest daughter were answering the front door and receiving such wonderful gifts of food from our neighbors – they were all so sad and wanted to help.

As more and more arrived it seemed at first like old times, the stories, the wonder, and the memories.  But then it wasn’t old times at all, it was new times, the horribly sad new times where family and old friends share death.

Morgan’s stalker was hardly mentioned at all when he should have been talked about copiously.  He was still lurking in the shadows of this which he had wrought, and even though we knew his name well – it was not mentioned at all.  Morgan was all that was on every mind there and she was the driving force for the unabated outpouring of love and wishes, and I think that is really how it should have been right then.  There would be plenty of time for the stalker later, after all, it was still a mystery according to law enforcement.

Morgan’s bedroom door still had its piece of police crime scene tape on it and I called the detectives about it.  At first we were told if we could leave it for two weeks that would be good, but now if we needed to go in we could. That day I did not, Steve wanted me to spend a day without thinking of her room and I did.  With everything that was going on I had little time to wonder, what it would look like after an investigation, what it would feel like knowing she was gone.  The kitchen had become the center of the world and for the next day I spent as much time right there as I could.

There was so much love, so much friendship, so much hugging and remembering.  Her friends came, our friends came.  So many came to help us fill an impossible void in our life – that void is still ever so tender, but I will always remember the endless efforts to try and soften the blow amid the endless arrivals and departures of Morgan’s dear sweet friends.

A very close friend of mine bustled in after noon and dragged me to a quiet corner, her words registered, but not fully, and certainly not right away.  She had just gotten off the phone with another of her friends and drove straight to our house to tell me herself.  I thought I realized the importance, but until I told Steve I guess I had not.

This friend of hers had listened to her voice message machine from someone on our street the day before.  The message started about their business meeting needing to be cancelled for the day, and then very excitedly moved to the reason.  He said there was crime scene tape around his neighbors house, the girl living in the house was being stalked, and he had to stay because of the situation.  But he knew who they thought the stalker was, and who he really was.

Steve was wide eyed as I told him, Morgan was dead, but at least ending the stalkers unimpeded rein was a start.  Detective Rob was contacted immediately.  And for the moment we kept the recent revelation to ourselves.  There were far more important tasks for Morgan.  Her viewing, her cremation (I had to remember to ask the Detective if we should do that or not in this case), and then her memorial, that alone would consume the next few days.

Steve had turned off all surveillance of the house after Morgan’s death because, as he put it, there is no more Morgan so there will be no more stalker,  But now he had a different feeling and turned it all back on.  Our visitors all had there own theories of what had happened and how to get to the bottom of it.  So in the middle of preparations for a memorial for my little angel there was also our own version of the first 48 hours taking place.

Morgan was so very special and also so very loved, she would not be taken from us without answers.  And we were still all patiently, silently, all awaiting answers.

Further following up on Friday’s post here is another link to a story on the two young boys who died, and shared the same pathologist as Morgan did.

 More on the Jensen Boys 

There are some statements from Dr. Kurtzman that ring from Morgan’s investigation and the continual assurances that any new evidence would be taken seriously that really troubles me.  The shortcomings of Morgan’s investigation, and the Pathologist being repeated would become very troublesome.

December 2, 2011 – Day One of Morgan’s Investigation – The Crime Scene

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Morgan at Disneyland - just before she came home to her stalking.

Morgan at Disneyland – just before she came home to her stalking.

 If you haven’t already – please click on the blog link below, “Do parents cover for their children – even when they murder?  Keenan, as well as both his parents, and stepfather, and others have gone on to LIE about where he was the night of December 2, 2011…why?  His story keeps changing. At first he told others that he was out of state – but now we have his work hours from the police report, so we know that was a lie.  Then he has said he was at work when she died – another lie.  Morgan’s body shows she was murdered BEFORE he got to work at 2:00 am in the morning on the 2nd.  He says he has proof he worked that night because the City Market cameras show he was at work…another twist of the truth.  I am sure the cameras show him at work after 2:00 am, but not before…so there goes his alibi.  Ask yourself – why would an innocent person have to change their story over and over again, and have others lie for him as well?

Do parents cover for their children – even when they murder?

Now back to the morning of December 2, 2011.  First the EMT’s arrived at our house, but they could not save Morgan.  She had been dead too long.  Just before 7 am a sheriff’s deputy parked his truck in front of our driveway and blocked off our house. The 1st responding ambulance is long gone and by 7 am there is a single piece of yellow crime scene tape stretched from the corner of the garage to a tree across the driveway.

My son Ryan arrives at 7:20 am and we are all in our house as more Garfield County sheriff’s officers arrive.  The mood is somber while some are slightly frenetic, especially the Deputy collecting pill bottles.  He is following Steve and wanting one bottle at a time, which he takes, leaves with, and then sometimes returns with and sometimes does not.

Later we will learn that Steve should have taken more control.  In the end result of what they did – I have yet to see anything that is actually correct in a police report.  If I were advising someone today I would tell them that you sit down with the person in charge and tell them, one by one, who her doctors are, the phone numbers, and the medication they prescribe, maybe current conditions going on, but that is it, stop there.

That morning there was not really one person in charge.  It was haphazard and disorganized at best.  Different people came asking different questions and the amount of information exchanged was really quite small.  I wanted answers, Steve wanted answers, anything.  But they had no answers and to say they sort of avoided us was probably the most accurate description.

Just as well because shock is a term with many meanings and many degrees, but if your child has just been found dead unexpectedly you are in shock and no matter how bad or how little, it is not the best time to be going over all of the very important details to be gone over.  Nobody really asked any of us much about anything, but then they never asked us later either.

After about twenty minutes it was time for us to leave anyway.  Our house was a “crime scene” and it had to be “processed”.  You nod at words like these at the time but, at least for me, the true significance does not come for quite a while.

So we all exited our house and left the Sheriffs department to their job.

Unfortunately for Morgan, it was all wrong. Towards the end of 2012 I had a conversation with a retired Sheriff who headed up another Sheriffs department here in the valley and he shared some thoughts about that morning with me.  Setting the tone was his opinion that we aren’t, “like the big cities”,  that there really isn’t a single person qualified to really process a homicide scene here.  But there is a solution for that, the CBI, the Colorado Bureau of Investigation.  They exist for situations like this.  A sudden, suspicious death during an active felony stalking investigation?  For him the house should have been closed up and they should have been called.  But they were not.  Instead we had the Sheriffs department, which would be fine if there were officers qualified in processing homicide scenes.  I watched them conducting the “investigation” on video recently, they didn’t even wear booties or gloves during their “investigation”.  There were no sheets or pillow cases taken, there was no evidence taken, there was no rape kit.  There might as well have been no investigation at all, snap a few pictures and call it a day.  Sorry Morgan, but at this point I feel this is what happened back then.  At the time I believed, I had the highest hopes for only the truth.  That is what I worked toward and felt so strongly that at the very least Morgan deserved at least that, the truth.

Morgan’s H.I.P.A.A. privacy rights have been so completely ignored in this investigation and while I certainly don’t think I should have to, I do feel the need to at least try to get the facts straightened out.  Morgan took NO prescription medications at the time of her death.  Now remember- the toxicology report will tell about more than just the last 24 hours for most prescription medications, it could be as little as 48 hours, averaging up to 4-8 days and in some cases 14 days or more, depending on the medication or drug.  Common drugs of abuse will be less, but for regularly taken prescription medications these are the time frames I have been given.  So on Morgan’s 1st toxicology report, which is available all over the web, the girl who doesn’t take drugs, surprise, surprise, her BLOOD levels were zero on everything except amitriptyline. And on her second toxicology test the total volume is not known so actual amounts can’t be calculated.  However the presence of amitriptyline along with four other common date rape drugs are detected.  And of course in the entire course of this investigation the container that held this concoction of five date rape drugs is not found.  Disappeared.  If you think, how can this be?  Steve and I wake up every morning and ask ourselves that very question.

On Morgan’s second toxicology test the suspicions of foul play should have grown, instead they disappeared.  Another fact I should not have to be giving out, but feel in the face of all of the misinformation so far I have little choice – Morgan had not taken amitriptyline for over 18 months at the time of her death.  Steve and I checked with all of her doctors to see if she had ever requested a prescription for the drug on her own.  On the contrary she indicated an avoidance of taking any drugs, which is what she always told us.  Steve and I also checked with the local pharmacies and no hidden Morgan Ingram accounts.  On a last note for all those who are so sure they know already, the greatest dosage of amitriptyline is 300mg per day.  Dr. Kurtzman estimated she took 18 – 25mg pills, for a total of 450mg, which is NOT even a fatal dose.

We were allowed back to the house around 10:45 am to see Morgan one last time.  Steve went but I stayed behind, I had already seen my daughter for the last time.  By 11:00 am the crime scene tape was down and if you didn’t know what had happen this morning, driving by you would be none the wiser.  How quickly it all happened, last night we had my little angel, a beautiful, intelligent, unstoppable daughter – with a stalker, a small group of stalkers to be more precise.  And this morning – we didn’t, it was that fast and that complete.

Morgan’s investigation had yielded little so far. There was no sign of forced entry, no foul play, and no sign of suicide.  It was, for the time being, a mystery.  But we would get answers, Steve and I were assured.  It would take some time, but we would have answers.  I took that as reassuring.

Morgan’s door has a short piece of crime scene tape over it.  We assume we aren’t supposed to go in,

Following up on yesterday’s post here is a link to a story on the two young boys who died.

http://www.gjsentinel.com/news/articles/heat-caused-deaths-of-jensen-boys

The article pretty much sums up the same issue that Morgan’s case began with, the manner of death for the boys was accidental and required no further investigation while Morgan’s manner of death was natural causes also requiring no further investigation.  We believed that because we had no reason to question it, the reason to question would come later, during a trip to California.  For the Jenson boys the questions came much sooner, from the District Attorney, quickly wielding an arrest warrant.

The Jensen boys had the same Forensic Pathologist that performed Morgan’s autopsy, but a different District Attorney.  The District Attorney representing Morgan, we have been told, had a closed door meeting on October 5, 2012.  And he arrived at the conclusion that it was just bad blood between Dr. Kurtzman and Dr. Doberson, no need to open a case at all.

Too bad Steve and I weren’t invited to the meeting, we could have at least told him that it wasn’t Dr. Dobersen that was the first one to tell us Morgan’s manner of death was not Natural Causes.  It was only after Dr. Kurtzman grew angry with the doctors from UCLA and insisted we get a second opinion from a forensic pathologist in Colorado that we found Dr. Dobersen through Howard of the non-profit FOHVAMP out of Denver.  Dr. Dobersen had never seen Morgan or treated her when she was alive, but he was able to review and verify most of the opinions being forwarded so far.  We are very grateful for the time he has taken out of his schedule for Morgan.  But bad blood?  No – Morgan deserves a little better than that.

Giving thanks to all of you that have helped and letting you know what is still to come. Stalkers beware – we will make changes!

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9599009-pumaWhen I started the blog called Morgan’s Stalking I really had no idea what to expect. How could I? It was at the most unimaginable time, trying to express the most unimaginable thing. One thing has not changed – and never will. Morgan is still my little angel. She is, without doubt, all of the good things that have been expressed about her since the beginning of this odyssey.

Now as Morgan’s Stalking becomes Morgan’s Investigation it is an appropriate time to take a quick look back, give thanks, and see what lies before us.

First to the people at WordPress, the software that allowed me to write a blog without even knowing what one was at the start, and without looking like too much of a klutz in the process, my first big THANK YOU. They sent a web page that told about Morgan’s blog. Things like:

  • About 55,000 tourists visit Liechtenstein every year. This blog was viewed about 4,000,000 times in 2012. If it were Liechtenstein, it would take about 73 years for that many people to see it. Your blog had 73 times more visits than a small country in Europe!
  • In 2012, there were 320 new posts, growing the total archive of this blog to 327 posts. I’m not sure where the other 7 posts came from but you now how computers are, give them a few numbers and . . .
  • The most popular post was “One year ago today Morgan’s stalking started”.
  • Most visitors came from The United States, with Canada in 2nd & Australia 3rd, counting everyone there were 117 countries in all!

Things that tell me the story of Morgan’s stalking is making a difference in more ways than I could have ever imagined when I began. She is in so many hearts, in so many places, helping so many people – and she has just begun.

All of you reading, and commenting, and sharing. Of course some of you go far beyond that but without naming names I trust that you all know who you are, if not I promise to do a better job this year and THANK YOU ALL.

Our grief counselor who has been such a steadying rock for me all year, our promotional guru who somehow manages to speed up when the time is right, and slow way down when I need it. The very very esteemed medical professionals from coast to coast and right here in Colorado who have volunteered their efforts on Morgan’s behalf. To those who helped fund the Morgan Ingram Scholarship fund. And for all of you who have so generously donated to Morgan Ingram’s Benefit Fund – Thank you all more than the mere words can ever express, please realize you are helping Morgan help the victims of stalking every day.
Now, about stalking, I have said many times in many ways how this word went from meaning nothing to meaning everything. How on one warm calm summer afternoon we were not the victims of stalking and in the next instant we were.

Looking forward this last year I have learned more about stalking than I ever could have known existed. I also have something to add – stalking is not just a crime, it is at the root of almost all crime. You can call it whatever you want, stalking, observing, recon, even call it surveilling, its all the same, it is stalking. I say this for one simple reason. There are laws written against stalking in all states, but laws against observing, or surveilling? Doubtful.

Predators like mountain lions wait and watch undetected in the tree line watching for the perfect moment to strike.  What if almost all of the crimes against humanity start with stalking? Burglary, rape, murder, peeping toms, grand theft auto, first the perpetrator stalks the prey, the victim, the house, the auto, the bank, the young child in the playground, then comes the act, the second part of the crime. It is not just a play on words, it is what happens.

The difference is that up until now the crime started with the theft, or the stabbing, or name your poison. But what if we back up a step and take the stalking more seriously? I will believe forever that Morgan’s murder began with her stalking. That if the stalkers were caught, there might not have been a murder. If the criminal surveilling the children in the playground was confronted, maybe the child left there just a few minutes too long would not have disappeared.

A reader of this blog told a story of how her husband confronted a stranger at their son’s game. A stranger nobody recognized standing all alone across the field. Asked him who he was, and that one question made him turn and run. Suspicious, you bet.

I am very mindful of the fact that we can’t live in fear, but we can be aware. Safety is not a given, it comes with requirements. Just look at all of the tragedies of the past year. Maybe it’s just me, but there seems to be more, and far more deadly every day. So many, we as a nation, and a world find ourselves searching for an answer.

Here is my suggestion, start with taking stalking seriously. If our Law Enforcement is hopeless against catching stalkers, what comes next? I’ve lived it and trust me, it’s not good. This year I will focus on Morgan’s investigation from the morning her body was found, and also revisit a few incidents from her stalking that have had a whole lot of new light shined on them.

More truth, won’t that be a bummer for those working so hard to discredit what anyone has to say about Morgan, even though it happens to be true.

Also I am far more committed to Morgan’s legacy. As in Morgan did not commit suicide. She has an ever growing army of professionals all agreeing that that is not what happened here. In case you keep up with the news and have heard about the horrible deaths of those two young children who were left in an idling car for too long, one dying on the scene and the other a short time later. If any of you have wondered, Morgan lived in Colorado, those two children lived in Colorado. Could the same Forensic Pathologist, Dr. Kurtzman, who found Morgan, first having died of natural causes from a medical condition she did not have, with a level of prescription medications she did not even take, registering in the stratosphere. Then months later, as more and more experts sounded alarms at the massive dose she had in her body, he called it insignificant. Then 9 months later he changes his mind and changes her manner of death from natural causes to suicide, based on “the amount consumed is consistent with deliberate intoxication”. So eighteen pills is consistent with a suicide? Eighteen pills of a medication she did not take? With a little cyclobenzaprine, which she never took in her life, thrown is for good measure. When an esteemed Forensic Pharmacologist has advised on Morgan’s case that estimating the number of pills taken is impossible, oh, and he did have far more questions about other aspects of her case, but that will have to wait for just a little bit. So to the point, the same Dr. Kurtzman was the pathologist for those two children. Google it, and decide for yourself.

Day one of Morgan’s investigation is next up.

The following is from a guest contributor to this blog – name withheld for her own protection, but to me she writes just like Morgan

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Dear Toni,
I have read your entire blog in less than 24 hours and Morgan and your family’s story has hit me so hard.

I watched the Dr. Phil show taping and read the interviews. I’ve actually been to some of his tapings myself. I am a strong supporter of Dr. Phil’s opinions and views, however this is one time I disagree with him. It is quite apparent that the efforts in the investigation are nonexistent. The primary reason this story is getting out is because of your blog and the stir it has caused. I am pleased that you didn’t let Dr. Phil convince you to take this down, (no offense Dr. Phil).

I am deeply sorry for the loss of Morgan. I am sorry your life changed the first time she heard that tapping on her window and will never be the same. I am sorry your local law enforcement completely failed you. I am sorry for the harsh realizations that have come with your 20/20 hindsight. I’m just a few months younger than your daughter and I can’t even imagine being in that situation and she was so brave and powerful.

You tried to do everything that you could in the months of her stalking. I can imagine my dad leaping from his room with the wooden baseball bat he has under his bed, doing exactly what your husband did every night something happened, just trying to catch this monster. You never left Morgan alone, maintained constant communication, you reported every bit to the police, took meticulous records, (obvious by your detailed posts), and listened to everything you were supposed to do. You spent an insurmountable level of energy, time, and money into placing technology and cameras where needed. You’re not in any security or surveillance company and put them exactly where anybody else would. I know my parents would just beat themselves to a pulp with guilt in your situation, but from my perspective and hopefully from a perspective similar to Morgan’s, you have gone so far above and beyond to protect her out of this overwhelming amount of love you have for her. I’m sure she knows you tried to do everything you possibly could. Please don’t take offense, I just know how I would feel if my parents were experiencing what you and your husband are feeling.

Your family reminds me so much of mine and I was hauntingly reminded of how this can happen to anyone. I am glad you have revealed your insights to strengthen our defenses against anybody else with severe mental distortion that would do this as well.
I’m not a parent. I’ve never experienced stalking as severe as yours. I’ve never lost a child. So it is impossible for me to say I understand. The level of frustration of knowing exactly what has happened with no one listening compares marginally to Jodie Foster’s role in Flight Plan.

I went in reading your blog knowing that Morgan had died, though it was still horribly shocking. I continued reading in hopes that some kind of hope would spring from this and I was woefully mistaken. I sincerely hope something happens and soon.

I know you are receiving large amounts of input about the case and I’m sorry to pile on more. It seems however, that you are appreciative of fresh perspectives and I hope I can contribute something. I personally suffer from depression. The signs in anybody are completely obvious in even small amounts of information. After the large amounts of information about your daughter’s life, I can conclude with absolute sincerity she did not commit suicide and I am happy you have stood by your claim. She would have withdrawn from friends LONG before a suicide, yet she maintained an  incredibly vigorous social life, even under the suffocating presence of a stalker. She stayed in physical activities (ballet) and ventured out of the house often, again notably impressive with the stalker’s behavior. She didn’t want to leave Wylah even for a few days to go to her sister’s house, she wouldn’t leave her forever. If suicide is an option, easily accessible medications or alternative methods would be used before the complicated process of creating the mix found in her system. I can go on and on with the evidence against suicide.

Personal brushes with stalking (though not as severe as your case) as well as numerous psych classes, relationship studies, and personal events lead me to the next input about your case. Though I do not believe ? (I’m following your naming system) was in your house the night of your daughter’s death or the main lurker around your house, she was an accomplice in the eyes of the law because she, without a doubt, was aware of K’s activity. Her snow march was absolutely a sloppy attempt at an alibi and diversion tactic. I feel like the relationships other teenagers have with their parents are sadly much more different from your strong relationship with your daughter. Which brings me to ?’s father. I believe he is aware of his daughter’s misbehavior, but like a loving father, he tries to protect his daughter. Though the extent of knowledge about exactly what her behavior is not known, I sincerely believe he doesn’t know much, and I don’t think he wants to know. Parents with aggressively misanthropic children will oftentimes grow fearful of their own children, slipping into a denial. He may never accept the idea of his daughter being anything other than his own little angel, and who can blame him? ? is however, obviously an active woman who makes her own choices, so it is far better to hold her responsible instead of letting her father continue to try to clean up after his daughter’s mistakes.

Now we are brought to Keenan VanGinkel. Your true offender. He fits the profile of a stalker so perfectly, students in a middle school level intro psychology class would easily match him up to the profile of a stalker. Proximity, expressed fascination to peers, delusion of a relationship with your daughter, hunting skills and knowledge, a teenager with access to internet, a sense of superiority to law enforcement and the law (which is horribly and sadly slightly accurate due to his ability to evade for so long), physical capability and manipulative abilities are just qualities off the top of my head for the cover boy of a perfect stalker. He is able to manipulate his girlfriend, even after a supposed relationship split, to remain in his life and active in protecting him. His girlfriend is aware of his infatuation with another girl, your daughter, yet continued to stay with him, a sad glance into their flawed relationship. I’m not giving this lowlife any excuses, but he is obviously mentally irrational. Somehow this \”relationship\” with your daughter made sense to him. I don’t think you will ever really understand why this monstrosity happened to your family, because you will never understand the mind of this man. Which is actually a very good thing. BUT I do know you are fighting to cage him up so he can NEVER carry out another \”relationship\” like this with any other woman which evidenced by history and psychology, is absolutely inevitable whether it be now or in twenty years. I applaud you and your efforts and I absolutely believe this is exactly what the next step is.

I want you to know I care deeply and support you in your tireless efforts. You could be saving ME for all I know. Thank you from me, your readers, the people you have helped, the people you have informed, and I know your lovely daughter would thank you too. With a cute little 🙂 I really feel the world has been cheated out of a beautiful person.

21 year old University Student

Why would people not want the truth to come out? What are they hiding? Are they invested in the lie, and if so why?

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  • warnings

Is it because they are guilty and we are getting too close to the truth?  If you don’t want to know the truth about what happened to Morgan, and you don’t want the investigation open – maybe I’m missing something here, but I would think you have something to hide – something or someone you are trying to protect.

Sorry if I have no empathy for you (and you all know who you are – you are not all the wonderful readers of this blog – you are the folks that try to make vile comments to this blog that I do delete, actually I don’t delete them, I save them for a some time down the line) because I am a mother that had a daughter terrorized, stalked, and murdered.  Our world will never be the same.  I am a mother that is fighting for justice, and to help others that desperately need help.  I am a mother that doesn’t want another family to go through what we have endured.

Unfortunately for them the TRUTH will come out, and whomever wants to fight against law enforcement’s investigation is going to have a lot to answer when interrogated.